Wednesday, May 30, 2012

Against the Warriors of Realspace: introduction and Vanilla Space Marines

Against the Warriors of Realspace is a new series I'm starting, sizing up how Daemons perform against the worst the Materium has to offer our beloved entities of Chaos.

Let's start with Space Marines! The vanilla kind! I have had quite a few battles with them, and can speak from experience about them.

Let's look at what units gain value against each other, and which ones lose value.
Bloodcrushers, Flamers, Chariots of Tzeentch, bloodletters to a degree, and screamers all become more effective against Space Marines.

Bloodcrushers can rampage through any combat unit Marines have to offer, and thus gain value: they need rending, though, in case they get assaulted by a dreadnought.

Bloodletters can rip through the more shooting-focused units, like tacticals, after they are disembarked: they need 10-man squads though, as you'll lose 50-75% from shooting before you close: but even 3 can kill a 5-man tactical squad in a couple rounds of CC, especially if they get the charge.

 Screamers are largely vital as a suicide unit, because they WILL have a landraider, and you WILL need it dead. Of course, the screamers will also be dead, but...

Flamers can punish those disembarked terminators immensely, bypassing their valuable 2+ and going straight for the 5++: with about a 5-man squad and a little luck, a 5-7 terminator squad can be wiped out in one turn. The extra, mobile Bolt is also appreciated, but warpfire is largely useless, as even scouts will be getting their cover most of the time.

Chariots will be earning their keep, as they will be very, very busy killing rhinos and rhino-based chassis like predators, by getting into side and rear arcs.

As for Space Marines, Thundersheilds actually lose value- equal-point bloodcrushers will wipe them out before they can attack back. Land raiders stay about the same- while their usefulness as a transport is nearly worthless, as there is no gunline for them to dump thunderdeath into, their AV14 is immensely more useful against Daemons, who have only screamers and assaults to rely on.
Any close combat unit, actually, is largely outclassed, especially ones that rely on and pay for power weapons.

However, high RoF and high AP weapons gain value, as all invuls means you want to be forcing saves, not ignoring them. Heavy bolters, assault cannons, and even normal bolters are much more valuable against Daemons- they get one or two turns of shooting against Daemons, and need to kill the close combat elements quickly.

In the end, I would say it depends on how the Daemon's reserves go. If they get lots of stuff early, the marines won't be able to shoot it all before it closes in and murders their precious shooting. If not, the marines can gun down units as they trickle in from reserves.

That's the end of the first installment of Against the Warriors of Realspace. What army would you all like analyzed next?


  1. Tau, my friends use Space Marines and Tau the most, Orks might also be good. Can you put lists that might work well against the army also? Can you also do one for Nids, my other army. Might be good to see what a Deamon player might use against my Nids. Thanks in advance.

    1. 'Fraid I don't know a whole lot about tau, I'll have to get some games in with a friend.
      I know some about orks, that could happen.
      But I know Tyranids inside and out, and they're an interesting matchup against Daemons. Definitely will do an article about them.

  2. Eternal Warrior is probably this armies asset against marines, as it makes a large number of tried and true tactics non-viable. Old favorites like hammernators and vindicators are suddenly a lot less interesting outside of crushing the errant bloodthirster into paste.
    Some solid units, like riflescouts and sternguard still work against deamons when used correctly, rifleman dread can punish anything without a 3+ severly and a ironclad is mostly murder-tastic.
    However, some units that have otherwise fallen out of style shine against daemons, in particular Devastators. Kitted out with four heavy bolters and a baseline razorback this unit is mobile and can project some surprising power over a fairly large distance. Cheap, too.
    Same goes for the whirlwind: Cheap, nasty and long-ranged. I expect the stormtalon to also work along those lines when equipped with a skyhammer, a 60" heavy 3 autocannon with BS 5 is quite nasty and outranges most weaponry in the game.
    A marine player that knows what he is doing will try to create a bunch of open-field killzones with his vehicles/transports, use that against him by clogging those firing lanes with some nurgle daemons, then bringing in the beatsticks once he tries to manouver into a better position.
    Trolling tip No.1: Get three Land Raider Redeemer/Achilles each loaded with 5 scouts and a techmarine, drop one on each objective, watch most daemon players ragequit.
    Trolling tip No.2: Put your entire force into Droppods. Swamp opponent in cheap tac and assault marines as well as dreads. No, Space Marine, you are the daemons! (not terribly viable, but hilariously confusing)
    Anyway, this went on for long enough. A excellent column, which mirrors most of my experiences from the othe other end of the table. Good work.

    1. Sorry, I just noticed that the system switched from IntenseDebate to Blogger once again. Should I delete the post?

    2. You'll get no debate from me Norrikan, I'm new to Deamons and I for one am looking for just this kind of insight. With your post I'm now more aware of what to keep in eye out for. Thanks for the info.

    3. holy... dude, you're doing half my work for me. I feel like I should just submit my posts to you before putting them up.

      Thank you for encouraging people to read the comments, and for the insight.

      And nahhh, let the comments switch as they like. I just prefer intensedebate more.

    4. Haha, don't worry, I don't plan on taking over your job. *smirks*
      Due to two of my regular opponents playing daemons (Nurgle/Khorne and Undivided respectivly) I just have quite a lot of experience of using vanilla marines against daemons, so I felt like sharing a bit.

    5. feel free to share.
      sharing is caring.