Battle Report: Daemons VS Grey Knights

I convinced my brother (who picked up grey knights mostly to spite me) to play a 800pt battle, and decided it would be a great opportunity to do a battle report for the blog.

Here's his list

Draigo, 275

2 paladins with halberds, 110

3 paladins, one with a Daemonhammer and psycannon, one with an incinerator and halberd, and the other with a halberd. 190

5-man Purgation squad, 4 psycannons, justicar has a Daemonhammer, rhino. 220

Here's my list.

3 Chariots of Tzeentch, each with Bolt, WaL and MoS, 330

5 Crushers, instrument, 205

5 Horrors, Bolt, Changeling 100

9 bloodletters, 164

The preferred half contained a chariot, the 5 horrors and 9 bloodletters, and the other half had 2 chariots and the 5 bloodcrushers.

Daemon Elites- which is the best?

There's been a lot of debate on the blog as of late of which is the best choice for the heavily contested Daemon Elite slot. With a bunch of mathhammer, I am going to solve the problem.

Consider this an addition to the Elites review.
Beasts of Nurgle are out.

"doesn't anyone love me?"

We'll use closely points-equivalent squads of each-

210pts, 7 Fiends. 

205pts, 5 Flamers with Bolt. 210 pts,

200pts, 5Bloodcrushers.

New rumors! How do these affect Daemons?

There's a whole new batch over at Natfka, and I would advise reading them first.

Holy crap. First off, massive buffs to flying MC's, and some nice tweaks to MC's in general. Bloodthirsters and winged DP's are looking much more attractive now.

HQ's can be scoring, if you choose the right attribute. Last turn objective grab with a Chariot? yes please!

What the rumors mean for Daemons

First off, I am going over all the rumors I've heard of, no matter how unlikely they are. There's a bunch of new ones over at Natfka, so you might want to look at those.

We'll start with Allies. This will bump Daemons, and every army except poor, poor Tyranids. There's several things Daemons would want from Chaos Marines- melta, Heavy weapons in general, and transports. (Note that bloodcrushers are infantry. This means you can put 8 in a rhino they steal from another unit) 

Good options look like Havocs, Sorcerers for psychic powers that Daemons lack and may need, depending on how 6th psychic powers pan out, and... anything that strikes your fancy.

Depending on how the allies chart pans out, it looks like they can get stuff from Tau. Broadsides, yay!

How-to: Mono-Tzeentch

I've been toying around with the idea of running an Mono-tzeentch army, and as with all one-god armies, each unit's value shifts somewhat. This will be a mini-review, revisiting each Tzeentch unit, and analyzing how good they are if they can't rely on the other gods.

first, some overall strengths and weaknesses.

Warseer

The universal 4++ is arguably their greatest advantage: every model is free from relying on cover, which is excellent for a shooting-based force.

Most of their shooting, while pretty good, is short-ranged, and this is bad when they can't be in close combat. They need some sort of counter-assault unit if they don't want to be destroyed third or fourth turn.

The abundance of Bolt of Tzeentch means they will have no problem cracking open rhinos and other low-AV vehicles. Of course, they then need to deal with the infantry inside.

Now let's look at the units, and if they solve the aforementioned problems sufficiently.

Daemons- not bad, just the worst.

I was talking to my brother the other day about the situation Daemons are in. When I  stated they were awful, and Grey Knights were amazing, he replied "oh yeah? Then how come you haven't lost a game for 6 months?" (I've been playing for a year, btw)

"well... I don't know."

"And you shouldn't complain about anti-tank! You kill every vehicle the other person puts on the board!"

"Because I HATE vehicles! And my entire army's focus is destroying them and getting to the people inside!"

"So is everyone's army."

In short, the discussion, and some recent battles, brought some stuff to the front of my mind. Namely- Maybe daemons aren't terrible. Maybe they're just the worst.

Mathhammer: doing it right?

So I was exploring the wild and wonderful internets, where I found this

"Choke slamming a shark and 'Mega Sound'? This is how you sell a freaking movie, kids." -Cracked.com

Kidding, I mean this, an article by Nikephoros over at House of Paincakes, regarding Mathhammer and how to apply it.

I tried the method he presented on the list in this article, and this is what I got.

DMS: 36.742
DMCC: 27.78
DRPG: 59.01
DLRPG: 32.708

now, if you compare it to stelek's list, or really, any of them, you can see why Daemons struggle with anti-tank. However... the DRPG and DLRPG scores are skewed. They assume that Daemons are on the board the whole game, which they aren't. Adjusted for how long the average unit is off the board, it comes out like this:

DMS: 36.742

DMCC: 27.78

DRPG: 47.208

DLRPG: 26.166

ah. See, that's pitiable. It's very clear from this where Daemons, at least my shooting-heavy list, strengths and weaknesses lie. Penetrating hits are hard to come across against Land Raiders, more common against Rhinos, but the anti-MEQ ability is staggering, at range at in combat.

So what do your lists look like, broken down so? I'm curious how well this system can objectify strengths and weaknesses of a list.

Slaanesh: One Man's Struggle.

Ok, some of you may know that Slaanesh is my least favorite Chaos god, fluff and rules. His/her/it's units clash with my playstyle in every way. They're fast, sure, but they're mind-numbingly shallow, and I believe massed rending is far too unreliable to beat out massed power weapons. They rely on hitting first, and killing the opponent entirely, but with their poor strength (and, you know, rending instead of power weapons) they simply can never pull it off. They usually kill about half of the opponent, then whatever lived murders their face off during a few more rounds of combat.

pictured: more threatening than Seekers.

a Different Sort of Foe: True Undivided

Alright, due to an old request, I have made an undivided army- I think it can even be used competitively.


Actual list after the jump, of course!

Against the Warriors of Realspace: Grey Knights

This installment of Against the Warriors of Realspace sizes up what ought to be the greatest threat Daemons could face- Grey Knights.

Yeah, I hate them too.

I apologize for the no-post yesterday- it was my birthday. 

Grey Knights ought to be an auto-lose for Daemons- I mean, not only is Grey Knights the newest Power Armor Mat Ward Codex, and Daemons are the 4th ed. rejects, but Grey Knights are unashamedly specifically designed to kill Daemons!


However, it's not that straightforward.

Email in: 2000pt Undivided, 4-herald list

This is an email from Hendrix in reply to the comments in this article.

I took into consideration what you said and scarped [sic] the list. ( the funny thing is I do own two heralds of tzeentch on chariots just never made a list to use them.)

so this is what I came up with (using models I actually own.)

HQ

2x HoT on chariots w/ legion, master, and bolt 110

1x HoK on juggernaut w/ gift, fury, and unholy might 135

1x skulltaker on juggeranut 175 pts.

Elites

2x 8-man juggernauts -320 each

Troops

5x pink horrors w/ bolt and changling 105

5x  pink horrors w/ bolt 95

5x plaguebearers 75

20x daemonettes 280 ( still need to get my hands on 20 of these models)

Against the Warriors of Realspace: Tyranids

As per the request of Ron_Fury, this segment of Against the Warriors of Realspace is sizing up Daemons versus the Great Devourer, Tyranids.

The most common, and generally most successful Tyranid build is T6 spam (I do not use spam derogatorily- I am all for using the most effective unit in every slot.), so I'll focus on that, but there really isn't a "majority" build for Daemons, so I'll analyze commonly used units, after the break.

A Different Sort of Foe: Khorne & Nurgle

So you guys think I like to have pretentious names for bundles of articles that are similar, and then claim they're a series- you are entirely correct. A Different Sort of Foe is a series where I post lists, either by request or unsolicited, but mostly the former.

Today we have a request by Ron_Fury, of a Khorne/Nurgle army. Now I don't normally write themed Daemon lists: it's like writing a Grey Knights list with nothing but purifiers, rhinos, crowe and a couple psyfledrea- oh. That list works. Bad analogy. Well... It's like making a space marine list with only things that have 2 "A"'s in the name- you arbitrarily cut yourself off from a bunch of good units.

However, Khorne-Nurgle sounds just crazy enough to work! Let's try it!

Chaos Daemons Review Part X: General Tactics, lists, and closing notes.

Chaos Daemons Review Part X: General Tactics, a list, and closing notes.

So, we’ve gone through all the units: some are awesome, some are painful to look at, but throughout the whole book we see some weaknesses and some strengths.

 this will be updated later.

Strengths:
A fantastic ability to destroy any and all non-vehicles
Incredibly durable scoring
Great Melee units
always get the first shooting phase

Chaos Daemons Review part IX, Heavy Support

Chaos Daemons Review Part IX, Heavy Support.

Soul Grinder: Usable.
I3. What the... GW, NON-LOYALISTS WALKERS CAN BE I4!
ahem. Anyways.
Besides the fact that they might get murdered by basic Dreadnoughts, they are pretty good. 

Chaos Daemons Review Part VIII, Fast Attack

Warhammer Vault

Chaos Daemons Review Part VIII, Fast Attack
The Fast attack slot is kind of a mixed bag- while many are bad, most can be situationally useful. More after the jump.

Chaos Daemons Review Part VII, Elites

warpstone flux

Chaos Daemons Review Part VII, Elites
The elites slot will be crowded, there’s some fierce competition between 3 of the units in it. How you build your elites dictates what all your other FO slots are.

Chaos Daemons Review Part VI, Troops

Christopher Burdett

Chaos Daemons Review Part VI, Troops.
I would advise against all the options except where I specifically state otherwise.

You must choose your troops carefully- after getting the other "If-I-don't-get-these-units-I-can't-be-competitive" units, you won't have a whole lot of points left over for scoring- and most of these troops can do more than score- for example...
 Bloodletters of Khorne: Can be very good

Chaos Daemons Review Part V: HQ part IV: Special Heralds

BoLS

Chaos Daemons Review Part V, HQ part IV, Special Heralds.
Holy CRAP I'm on the Faeit212 blogexchange!
I'm so happy!
*ahem...* anyways...
The Masque: Bad.
Let’s see, she’s on foot, but fleet. She has about close combat and shooting capability and durability of 2 daemonettes (read, not much.), while costing more than 3 times as much. Oh look! she can use pavane 3 times! Nope, still not worth it. She isn’t even a character, so you can’t join her to squads. :\ she dies to lasguns, after she moves a couple squads out of cover. Waste of points, and a free KP.

Chaos Daemons Review Part IV: HQ part III: Heralds.

goatboy

Chaos Daemons Codex Review Part IV: HQ part III: Heralds.
Daemon Heralds are the cheapest HQ choice available to Daemons, and there’s one for any army you would like to build.

Herald of Khorne: Pretty Good!
He is 70 pts, and you get a pretty good statline for that price. He’s pretty useful to stick in a squad of bloodletters or bloodcrushers: think of him as an upgrade from a bloodletter that takes 1/2 an hq slot, and that’s about what his role is. Upgrades after the jump.